Celtic Heroes

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Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#62
bob the mage wrote:
Zkills wrote:
bob the mage wrote:*facepalm*
I was using that as an example ._.
Epona gold and Gwyd gold are not the same ._. It’s two different markets. Since you can’t use epona gold to buy an item on gwyd, they are two closed markets. No server trading etc... so closed markets

I’m sorry if you aren’t understanding this but the math and theory all support what I’ve been saying ._. Legit all I’m doing rn is studying economics you gotta give me some benefit of the doubt :lol:
Relative prices and with regards to the larger economy, epona doesn’t have a better economy on face, the only prime facia observation you can make is that the economies are different ._.

I can draw some graphs in pretty colors if that helps

Technically xfering is buying things on one server for stuff on another ._. Take me for example, I sold my mythic arctic wings and some other stuff on Epona for like 2 pairs of mythic arctic wings, some fash, reaper ring, other lux, millions and millions of gold and hundreds of lixs on a diff server. I estimated it to be about a 1:5 xfer ratio. Some people buy chests on one server for gold on a different server. I’ve seen someone sell a reaper ring on one server for gold on Epona. So while the markets aren’t officially connected to one another, players have found ways to connect the different markets found on different servers. Epona does have a better Economy because it’s a free market which attracts more plat buyers ._. Free markets work better than restricted markets ._.

I understand it, I just don’t believe math and theory is needed here lol. It’s mostly common sense and logic, you don’t need an economics textbook lol. I have taken college level macro/micro economics which is more than enough to understand lol. No graphs needed, just some good ol logic

Ya but when we xfer we don't default to an equilibrium price, thus it better fits models of multiple closed markets than one world market. Xfering is too rare etc to actually influence anything on the macro level.
It just economic math, but its not a valid argument to say that "epona's economy is better because the price of X is Y" unless you look at every variable, such as the fact that on Epona you have to have gold for gear, whereas on most servers the only thing gold is needed for are lixs and extras.

I mostly say Epona has such a great economy because their free market encourages people to buy more plat and to invest into more chests, because a free market increases the buying power of gold. Cheaper everyday items are just one of the benefits of that which helps promote Epona’s good economy.

I’ve been saying the entire time that free markets are simply better than restricted markets, especially in this game. Even you can’t deny that lol.
Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan

Professor/Detective Zkills, op mage of Epona, chieftain of KodiakReavers. Server banned for doing PvP in arena.

Can you do the impossible?
Celtic Heroes Ultimate Challenge

Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#63
Zkills wrote:
bob the mage wrote:
Zkills wrote:Technically xfering is buying things on one server for stuff on another ._. Take me for example, I sold my mythic arctic wings and some other stuff on Epona for like 2 pairs of mythic arctic wings, some fash, reaper ring, other lux, millions and millions of gold and hundreds of lixs on a diff server. I estimated it to be about a 1:5 xfer ratio. Some people buy chests on one server for gold on a different server. I’ve seen someone sell a reaper ring on one server for gold on Epona. So while the markets aren’t officially connected to one another, players have found ways to connect the different markets found on different servers. Epona does have a better Economy because it’s a free market which attracts more plat buyers ._. Free markets work better than restricted markets ._.

I understand it, I just don’t believe math and theory is needed here lol. It’s mostly common sense and logic, you don’t need an economics textbook lol. I have taken college level macro/micro economics which is more than enough to understand lol. No graphs needed, just some good ol logic

Ya but when we xfer we don't default to an equilibrium price, thus it better fits models of multiple closed markets than one world market. Xfering is too rare etc to actually influence anything on the macro level.
It just economic math, but its not a valid argument to say that "epona's economy is better because the price of X is Y" unless you look at every variable, such as the fact that on Epona you have to have gold for gear, whereas on most servers the only thing gold is needed for are lixs and extras.

I mostly say Epona has such a great economy because their free market encourages people to buy more plat and to invest into more chests, because a free market increases the buying power of gold. Cheaper everyday items are just one of the benefits of that which helps promote Epona’s good economy.

I’ve been saying the entire time that free markets are simply better than restricted markets, especially in this game. Even you can’t deny that lol.

So a few things in response:
1) buying power of gold:
The more of something there is, the less it’s worth. This is a basic principle of scarcity and economics as a whole. Think of Zimbabwe or Venezuela as examples of how inflation decreases a currencies value. As such, more gold per person would actually decrease the buying power of gold, and would actually make the server reliant on chests as that is the only way to get gold quickly. In other words, it forces the server to be closer to fully P2W as the time it would take to farm the gold for say one BT item has now exponentially increased.
Thus, those who buy chests (or print money irl) are able to gain a short term advantage, but unless they spend it quick enough, any benefit would evaporate.

2) now let’s assume increase in the amount of players increases the same as chests being bought. No inflation occurs, however there is no real economic increase either as things just grow to scale. Thus either you see negative impacts or none at all, there is no real way to gain benefits from an increase in the money supply like that.

3) free markets are better overall in comparison to less free markets. That is true. This is only true however when looking at the economy as a whole. In fact most trade models would show that there are winners and losers of trade, and a free trade system is only as good as the assistance programs to help those who suffer the most. Epona being purely free has nothing like that, so those that lose from the open market lose entirely.
Who are the losers? Active players who don’t buy enough plat to participate in the market. On a DKP world everything is free, so the active player benefits whereas the lazy rich player loses relatively. It’s all comparative.

4) last point is that “better” is subjective entirely. As shown in (3) there are winners and losers in free markets, not everyone wins. DKP systems however create mini-free markets that are regulated and are only open to certain individuals. While they don’t gain the full advantages as an open market in terms of overall market boost, for those involved they will always see benefits, hence why some prefer DKP to truly open market systems.


Conclusion: so ya, I can’t refute the basic economic fact that free trade is always better for an economy. I can however showcase areas where there are severe losers, and why some would prefer a system that had less of a disparity between the winners and the losers (such as a DKP system), even if the overall gains for the entire system are less.
At the end of the day, it’s all preference.
Gwydion - Voted Top Noob of Relentless
BobsYourUncle 226 Fire Mage

Stubborn 220 Warrior (Tank)

Feel free to pm me about anything or talk to me in game :D
boymclir wrote:Bob The God

Shadae wrote:This Bob guy is a guide? Legitimately?

Pineapple does NOT belong on Pizza

Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#64
bob the mage wrote:
Zkills wrote:
bob the mage wrote:Ya but when we xfer we don't default to an equilibrium price, thus it better fits models of multiple closed markets than one world market. Xfering is too rare etc to actually influence anything on the macro level.
It just economic math, but its not a valid argument to say that "epona's economy is better because the price of X is Y" unless you look at every variable, such as the fact that on Epona you have to have gold for gear, whereas on most servers the only thing gold is needed for are lixs and extras.

I mostly say Epona has such a great economy because their free market encourages people to buy more plat and to invest into more chests, because a free market increases the buying power of gold. Cheaper everyday items are just one of the benefits of that which helps promote Epona’s good economy.

I’ve been saying the entire time that free markets are simply better than restricted markets, especially in this game. Even you can’t deny that lol.

So a few things in response:
1) buying power of gold:
The more of something there is, the less it’s worth. This is a basic principle of scarcity and economics as a whole. Think of Zimbabwe or Venezuela as examples of how inflation decreases a currencies value. As such, more gold per person would actually decrease the buying power of gold, and would actually make the server reliant on chests as that is the only way to get gold quickly. In other words, it forces the server to be closer to fully P2W as the time it would take to farm the gold for say one BT item has now exponentially increased.
Thus, those who buy chests (or print money irl) are able to gain a short term advantage, but unless they spend it quick enough, any benefit would evaporate.

2) now let’s assume increase in the amount of players increases the same as chests being bought. No inflation occurs, however there is no real economic increase either as things just grow to scale. Thus either you see negative impacts or none at all, there is no real way to gain benefits from an increase in the money supply like that.

3) free markets are better overall in comparison to less free markets. That is true. This is only true however when looking at the economy as a whole. In fact most trade models would show that there are winners and losers of trade, and a free trade system is only as good as the assistance programs to help those who suffer the most. Epona being purely free has nothing like that, so those that lose from the open market lose entirely.
Who are the losers? Active players who don’t buy enough plat to participate in the market. On a DKP world everything is free, so the active player benefits whereas the lazy rich player loses relatively. It’s all comparative.

4) last point is that “better” is subjective entirely. As shown in (3) there are winners and losers in free markets, not everyone wins. DKP systems however create mini-free markets that are regulated and are only open to certain individuals. While they don’t gain the full advantages as an open market in terms of overall market boost, for those involved they will always see benefits, hence why some prefer DKP to truly open market systems.


Conclusion: so ya, I can’t refute the basic economic fact that free trade is always better for an economy. I can however showcase areas where there are severe losers, and why some would prefer a system that had less of a disparity between the winners and the losers (such as a DKP system), even if the overall gains for the entire system are less.
At the end of the day, it’s all preference.

Thing is, it’s really not that hard to make gold without buying plat on Epona. There are plenty of examples of super poor players with really bad gear winning a really expensive item from a boss which they sold and are now rocking amazing gear of their own. Show up enough times and you will win something and you will eventually get rich. Players can become multimillionaires overnight. And not many players simply sit on top of mountains of gold for the fun of it. Many are either saving up for more expensive items (like pures) or they get the gold they need and spend it on an item they need almost straight away. It’s not like what you see on Dom servers where people sit on millions and millions of gold because there’s nothing to buy unlike on Epona where there’s always something you need that you can buy. The value of gold has been absolutely destroyed on those servers and that’s no fun at all. When I played on Belenus I rarely could buy the fash I was looking for with gold because nobody needed it, they wanted other rare items instead that I didn’t have. The game is a whole lot more fun when the currency is actually worth something and there is a super active free market to buy things from.

There’s really no losers in a free market in this game, only winners (unless if you dice lol). There are not many items that I can think of that scale in price as the player base grows. Pures have remained constant at 9m, although players often want much more than that because they’re greedy and take full advantage of the demand for pures. Same for other items, they have a constant accepted price, but greedy players always try to milk a little more. Many players don’t like that practice, because those players are annoying asf, but most of the time they’re just impatient and buy anyways.

There’s really no good defense for dom servers using dkp. It ruins the economy, it makes life hard for players who don’t want to be involved in the dom clan, it forces competition, turns the environment toxic, and dkp itself is such a tiring system that burns people out at a faster rate. It ultimately forces anyone to burn out at a faster rate because dkp requires so much time out of your life and those on the outside eventually get sick of never getting anything. All of that so the dom clan can reap the benefits of swimming in banks full of drops and enjoy repeated victories over weaker clans. A lot of the items you consider to be “trash” in your banks would be considered to be useful by players on the outside stuck using lower level/outdated items. Of course it’s easy for those in a dom clan to say how much fun competition is and how great dkp is for them, because they’re the ones on top and always winning lol. It’s like a communist country, where the ones at the top are enjoying themselves while the entire country is suffering, but they don’t care because to them they’re all fine and the people below them don’t matter lol. Then those people start to revolt against the leaders (competition) who then try to shut them down. There are countless examples of dom clans choking out the competition, forcing them to die out and reform at a later time, and that cycle continues until they give up and join the dom unwillingly because there’s no other choice, or they flat out quit/xfer.
Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan

Professor/Detective Zkills, op mage of Epona, chieftain of KodiakReavers. Server banned for doing PvP in arena.

Can you do the impossible?
Celtic Heroes Ultimate Challenge

Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#65
Zkills wrote:
bob the mage wrote:
Zkills wrote:I mostly say Epona has such a great economy because their free market encourages people to buy more plat and to invest into more chests, because a free market increases the buying power of gold. Cheaper everyday items are just one of the benefits of that which helps promote Epona’s good economy.

I’ve been saying the entire time that free markets are simply better than restricted markets, especially in this game. Even you can’t deny that lol.

So a few things in response:
1) buying power of gold:
The more of something there is, the less it’s worth. This is a basic principle of scarcity and economics as a whole. Think of Zimbabwe or Venezuela as examples of how inflation decreases a currencies value. As such, more gold per person would actually decrease the buying power of gold, and would actually make the server reliant on chests as that is the only way to get gold quickly. In other words, it forces the server to be closer to fully P2W as the time it would take to farm the gold for say one BT item has now exponentially increased.
Thus, those who buy chests (or print money irl) are able to gain a short term advantage, but unless they spend it quick enough, any benefit would evaporate.

2) now let’s assume increase in the amount of players increases the same as chests being bought. No inflation occurs, however there is no real economic increase either as things just grow to scale. Thus either you see negative impacts or none at all, there is no real way to gain benefits from an increase in the money supply like that.

3) free markets are better overall in comparison to less free markets. That is true. This is only true however when looking at the economy as a whole. In fact most trade models would show that there are winners and losers of trade, and a free trade system is only as good as the assistance programs to help those who suffer the most. Epona being purely free has nothing like that, so those that lose from the open market lose entirely.
Who are the losers? Active players who don’t buy enough plat to participate in the market. On a DKP world everything is free, so the active player benefits whereas the lazy rich player loses relatively. It’s all comparative.

4) last point is that “better” is subjective entirely. As shown in (3) there are winners and losers in free markets, not everyone wins. DKP systems however create mini-free markets that are regulated and are only open to certain individuals. While they don’t gain the full advantages as an open market in terms of overall market boost, for those involved they will always see benefits, hence why some prefer DKP to truly open market systems.


Conclusion: so ya, I can’t refute the basic economic fact that free trade is always better for an economy. I can however showcase areas where there are severe losers, and why some would prefer a system that had less of a disparity between the winners and the losers (such as a DKP system), even if the overall gains for the entire system are less.
At the end of the day, it’s all preference.

Thing is, it’s really not that hard to make gold without buying plat on Epona. There are plenty of examples of super poor players with really bad gear winning a really expensive item from a boss which they sold and are now rocking amazing gear of their own. Show up enough times and you will win something and you will eventually get rich. Players can become multimillionaires overnight. And not many players simply sit on top of mountains of gold for the fun of it. Many are either saving up for more expensive items (like pures) or they get the gold they need and spend it on an item they need almost straight away. It’s not like what you see on Dom servers where people sit on millions and millions of gold because there’s nothing to buy unlike on Epona where there’s always something you need that you can buy. The value of gold has been absolutely destroyed on those servers and that’s no fun at all. When I played on Belenus I rarely could buy the fash I was looking for with gold because nobody needed it, they wanted other rare items instead that I didn’t have. The game is a whole lot more fun when the currency is actually worth something and there is a super active free market to buy things from.

There’s really no losers in a free market in this game, only winners (unless if you dice lol). There are not many items that I can think of that scale in price as the player base grows. Pures have remained constant at 9m, although players often want much more than that because they’re greedy and take full advantage of the demand for pures. Same for other items, they have a constant accepted price, but greedy players always try to milk a little more. Many players don’t like that practice, because those players are annoying asf, but most of the time they’re just impatient and buy anyways.

There’s really no good defense for dom servers using dkp. It ruins the economy, it makes life hard for players who don’t want to be involved in the dom clan, it forces competition, turns the environment toxic, and dkp itself is such a tiring system that burns people out at a faster rate. It ultimately forces anyone to burn out at a faster rate because dkp requires so much time out of your life and those on the outside eventually get sick of never getting anything. All of that so the dom clan can reap the benefits of swimming in banks full of drops and enjoy repeated victories over weaker clans. A lot of the items you consider to be “trash” in your banks would be considered to be useful by players on the outside stuck using lower level/outdated items. Of course it’s easy for those in a dom clan to say how much fun competition is and how great dkp is for them, because they’re the ones on top and always winning lol. It’s like a communist country, where the ones at the top are enjoying themselves while the entire country is suffering, but they don’t care because to them they’re all fine and the people below them don’t matter lol. Then those people start to revolt against the leaders (competition) who then try to shut them down. There are countless examples of dom clans choking out the competition, forcing them to die out and reform at a later time, and that cycle continues until they give up and join the dom unwillingly because there’s no other choice, or they flat out quit/xfer.

The rebuttal is simple. Your arguments sole evidence is that you have seen players who have done well, what about all those who have nothing? Plenty leave epona all the time because after 2 or 3 years they never won a single good roll. It happens all the time, it’s luck based economy. The math and models for trade and economics support these findings as well. Where there is scarcity there will always be comparative winners and losers. Always, it’s just a fact of the models.
This goes back to what I said before, it’s preference between servers. On a DKP server you have to put in a lot of time to get gear. It cost nothing (most players on DKP servers have never bought more than $10 in plat) but anyone can get well geared through work alone. On Epona it’s either luck, more work than you would put in on a DKP server, or a lot of real life money. For the first group and the third, they win, but for the middle group they lose, hence it works. Even if you remove this group, not everyone can win a roll every time, so eventually that first group forms a fourth group that can be called the no luck group. On a DKP server the first and third group don’t gain any advantage, and thus lose comparatively.
As I also said before it’s not about how big one can win, but it shows in how much someone can lose. On a DKP server everyone wins similarly. On a luck or plat based server however the wins are always going to be pretty disproportionate.

Once again, it’s preference. It’s not saying one is “good” or “bad” and neither are communistic (communistic would be everyone gets equal gear, which doesn’t happen on a single server, none of the servers are socialistic either, it’s just different capitalistic systems with different regulations). Instead it’s saying this is what I prefer or that is what I prefer.


Anyways this is off topic, going back to the OP all of this shows that forcing another Epona as in an Epona 2 isn’t a good idea for the game. Going back, plenty of other servers have tried, but supply and demand have resulted in them not working, there simply aren’t enough players who want a smaller Epona. This argument was never Epona good or Epona bad, but instead is there enough market force to warrant the developers stepping in to force another server to be like Epona. And the answer to that question is in the question. If there is market force it will happen on its own, but as there is no market force it isn’t happening on its own, and either way there isn’t market force, so thus by all the above no reason to have the developers force it to occur.
Gwydion - Voted Top Noob of Relentless
BobsYourUncle 226 Fire Mage

Stubborn 220 Warrior (Tank)

Feel free to pm me about anything or talk to me in game :D
boymclir wrote:Bob The God

Shadae wrote:This Bob guy is a guide? Legitimately?

Pineapple does NOT belong on Pizza

Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#66
The entire game revolves around luck. The difference between Epona and a dom server is that Epona gives more freedom to the players while a dom server tries to restrict the players to the point where there is little freedom. Both are restricting in a way, both have rules, and both are filled with corrupt/unfair players, rules and methods. To me it’s not about Epona vs dom servers, to me it’s about the future of this game and what needs to happen in order for this game to become successful. Every server including Epona is plagued with greed and corruption, and as time goes on it becomes more and more evident, so a solution needs be found to combat that greed and corruption.

Simply creating another Epona (although free servers is the best current solution) won’t work because the problem lies within the core mechanics of this game, that being the loot distribution. I’ve already suggested multiple times now how the loot distribution should be and how it will positively impact this game in the long run. With those changes put in place this game will become successful, VR will get more money which encourages them to keep on developing content for this game, more players will come to stay on this game, and players will ultimately enjoy this game a lot more than they are now.

Is the lack of content a problem? Yes it is. But what good does releasing new content do when the core mechanics are still flawed and players are allowed to run wild with the loot distribution causing problems wherever they go?
Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan

Professor/Detective Zkills, op mage of Epona, chieftain of KodiakReavers. Server banned for doing PvP in arena.

Can you do the impossible?
Celtic Heroes Ultimate Challenge

Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#67
Once you set foot at Epona s heroes landing, that toon can do and experience the while game. From farming oats upto farming dhino regularly. Even banned toons, they can start a new toon, and play again, nobody Will know unless you wanted them too. Thats How simple it is. You will feel that it is Really just a game, no obligations, login whenever you want, take a break for a month or two, come back and you are of same level as others. And because of these, lots of transfers mostly experienced EG players came from all servers to join epona, lots of new players joined epona, overwhelming response that otm or VR didnt know that epona Will hit the server limitations.
We have 19 servers, so WHy Epona, and not nuada or gwydion or arawn, WHy not join Dom world? Less competition, for me rolls and dkp kinda same in terms of ways to get drops. In a dom clan, when a rogue item drop you only need to compete with dkp of rogues inside the clan means less competition, but in a free world, you compete with so many rogues of that 100 man raid in all 3 timezones. I see lots still levelling , but when they reach EG, we may need Epona 3 also.
World: Epona
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FPJ/Druid

Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#69
Bitey wrote:Upon reading the many many replies, it seems that one kind of world is based on luck, and the other is based upon hard work. Neither is wrong, and neither one is better. It just depends on what kind of experience you want to have in the game.


I think that's quite a fair summary, though it's worth pointing out that both kinds of worlds have elements of the opposite in it. Hard work isn't as useful if you have bad luck with boss spawns (if they spawn at times you are unable to log). Likewise, a luck-based system likely will require a ton of hard work with a small chance of getting what you want.
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Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#70
Eragon123 wrote:
Bitey wrote:Upon reading the many many replies, it seems that one kind of world is based on luck, and the other is based upon hard work. Neither is wrong, and neither one is better. It just depends on what kind of experience you want to have in the game.


I think that's quite a fair summary, though it's worth pointing out that both kinds of worlds have elements of the opposite in it. Hard work isn't as useful if you have bad luck with boss spawns (if they spawn at times you are unable to log). Likewise, a luck-based system likely will require a ton of hard work with a small chance of getting what you want.


The only difference from my perspective is that people on epona don't mind when players come back from straight inactivity to be eligible for gear whereas more managed servers will have issues with it on the period between coming back and being eligible.
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