Celtic Heroes

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Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#71
Shivahh wrote:
Eragon123 wrote:
Bitey wrote:Upon reading the many many replies, it seems that one kind of world is based on luck, and the other is based upon hard work. Neither is wrong, and neither one is better. It just depends on what kind of experience you want to have in the game.


I think that's quite a fair summary, though it's worth pointing out that both kinds of worlds have elements of the opposite in it. Hard work isn't as useful if you have bad luck with boss spawns (if they spawn at times you are unable to log). Likewise, a luck-based system likely will require a ton of hard work with a small chance of getting what you want.


The only difference from my perspective is that people on epona don't mind when players come back from straight inactivity to be eligible for gear whereas more managed servers will have issues with it on the period between coming back and being eligible.


Depends on player personality, as well as the system. Sometimes there is dkp decay that will slowly sap your points over time. Even without decay, my opinion is that you still worked hard for those points - even if it was a year ago, the effort was still put in for the clan, and the clan owes you for your effort.

Epona is self-oriented - you have to work for what you get. DKP servers are clan-oriented, the clan members work to strengthen the clan, and the clan rewards them with gear for their efforts.

Is it a perfect system? Nope - neither is. On Epona, you could work super hard and not get what you want. On a different server, it's possible that the clan leadership may twist the rules to gear preferential players - but those cases are usually because those players do more for the clan, even if they may not be as loyal as more casual players.
Last edited by Eragon123 on Sun Feb 16, 2020 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#72
Bitey wrote:Upon reading the many many replies, it seems that one kind of world is based on luck, and the other is based upon hard work. Neither is wrong, and neither one is better. It just depends on what kind of experience you want to have in the game.

If you look at the outcomes in terms of the games health both provide, you’ll see that free servers are in fact better. From VRs perspective, free servers generate more money because of the good economy. From our perspective more plat buyers mean a great economy and more money in VRs pocket, encouraging them not to completely leave out Celtic Heroes and develop more content for us which is more important than ever with Warhammer being developed.

Both rely on luck, and Eragon said it on the spot. What’s the point of hard work when the item you want is never dropping? And then when it does some other person takes it. That explains why you see so many players complaining about drops when there’s no reason to complain really, I never hear people on Epona complain about drops because almost everything is worth something there where a majority of items are useless trash on a dom server. BT ammys for example, dom servers now consider those to be trash while on Epona they sell for like 1m-1.5m (recently sold a royal firemage ammy for 1.5m). That’s another reason why free servers are better.

Dom servers and dkp just tire people out and all they ever want to do is complain because they feel the completely unnecessary hard work they’re doing isn’t worth the reward. It’s not VRs fault, it’s the leaders who thought dominance and dkp were a great idea, forcing their members to work part time if they want any good loot. I don’t understand how people can still defend dominance/dkp, it’s not a good system and it’s not healthy for neither the players or this game.
Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan

Professor/Detective Zkills, op mage of Epona, chieftain of KodiakReavers. Server banned for doing PvP in arena.

Can you do the impossible?
Celtic Heroes Ultimate Challenge

Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#73
Shivahh wrote:
Eragon123 wrote:
Bitey wrote:Upon reading the many many replies, it seems that one kind of world is based on luck, and the other is based upon hard work. Neither is wrong, and neither one is better. It just depends on what kind of experience you want to have in the game.


I think that's quite a fair summary, though it's worth pointing out that both kinds of worlds have elements of the opposite in it. Hard work isn't as useful if you have bad luck with boss spawns (if they spawn at times you are unable to log). Likewise, a luck-based system likely will require a ton of hard work with a small chance of getting what you want.


The only difference from my perspective is that people on epona don't mind when players come back from straight inactivity to be eligible for gear whereas more managed servers will have issues with it on the period between coming back and being eligible.

It’s mostly because people on Epona have learned that it really doesn’t matter if a player who was inactive until recently won. As long as he contributed fairly to the boss then he’s eligible to the loot that boss will drop, as things should be. Activity or clan should not be factors when it comes to obtaining loot from a boss. It should be contributions to the said raid you have given.
Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan

Professor/Detective Zkills, op mage of Epona, chieftain of KodiakReavers. Server banned for doing PvP in arena.

Can you do the impossible?
Celtic Heroes Ultimate Challenge

Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#74
Zkills wrote:
Shivahh wrote:
Eragon123 wrote:
I think that's quite a fair summary, though it's worth pointing out that both kinds of worlds have elements of the opposite in it. Hard work isn't as useful if you have bad luck with boss spawns (if they spawn at times you are unable to log). Likewise, a luck-based system likely will require a ton of hard work with a small chance of getting what you want.


The only difference from my perspective is that people on epona don't mind when players come back from straight inactivity to be eligible for gear whereas more managed servers will have issues with it on the period between coming back and being eligible.

It’s mostly because people on Epona have learned that it really doesn’t matter if a player who was inactive until recently won. As long as he contributed fairly to the boss then he’s eligible to the loot that boss will drop, as things should be. Activity or clan should not be factors when it comes to obtaining loot from a boss. It should be contributions to the said raid you have given.


Thats arguable seeing as someone that consistently bosses for months on end waiting for that one drop should not be having to share the dice with another who so happened to come back on that day after being gone for a long period of time.

Dkp gets bashed too often but it's only showing a strict but considerable amount of fairness.
Time and effort should be put into consideration which is why there are more servers managing a clan rather than a free server with close to no rules.
Yes epona is in terms of a server big but if you compare epona to the whole of the Celtic Heroes dkp clans it's merely a small margin.
Dkp has its success and it's reasons, there are people who don't want their activity to be in vain.

And on a side note people would much rather see the gear go to the players who use it for the clan not for their personal gain and to show up every so often.
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Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#75
Shivahh wrote:
Zkills wrote:
Shivahh wrote:
The only difference from my perspective is that people on epona don't mind when players come back from straight inactivity to be eligible for gear whereas more managed servers will have issues with it on the period between coming back and being eligible.

It’s mostly because people on Epona have learned that it really doesn’t matter if a player who was inactive until recently won. As long as he contributed fairly to the boss then he’s eligible to the loot that boss will drop, as things should be. Activity or clan should not be factors when it comes to obtaining loot from a boss. It should be contributions to the said raid you have given.


Thats arguable seeing as someone that consistently bosses for months on end waiting for that one drop should not be having to share the dice with another who so happened to come back on that day after being gone for a long period of time.

Dkp gets bashed too often but it's only showing a strict but considerable amount of fairness.
Time and effort should be put into consideration which is why there are more servers managing a clan rather than a free server with close to no rules.
Yes epona is in terms of a server big but if you compare epona to the whole of the Celtic Heroes dkp clans it's merely a small margin.
Dkp has its success and it's reasons, there are people who don't want their activity to be in vain.

And on a side note people would much rather see the gear go to the players who use it for the clan not for their personal gain and to show up every so often.

That added randomness of “you don’t know who’s gonna get that great item next” is what makes MMOs so fun and addicting, and it’s fairly common in MMOs. I used this example before, but on a different game I played I had just started playing, after a few days of killing a certain boss casually I happened to get one of the rarest quivers in the game that has a 1/800, or .00125% chance of dropping. A veteran player who was there told me he’s been searching for that quiver for months, killing countless amounts of that boss. Not knowing when or who the drop will go to makes games a whole lot more fun and engaging than knowing who exactly will get a drop. In that same game whenever someone gets a really rare drop everyone else gets excited and trades the person to see if it’s true, and everyone is a pretty good sport about it. It encourages people to be more active and show to more bosses because it’s anyone’s fair game, that’s why you see Epona constantly getting 2+ pages of players for any called raid boss, even up to apparently 100 or so players for Gele.

The only success in dkp is how it can organize clans, but even then that comes at a cost server wide as it will always create a toxic environment and players on the outside get left in the dust. Even within the dkp/dom clan, as I said before, it can create a toxic environment amongst the clan members. Rifts often form between two sides and people often end up leaving the clan as a result, with more severe cases ending up in stolen gear or players leaving upset and causing more chaos just before they leave. Even in your clan acs, after speaking to some members for a while it’s clear that there are some members that do not like each other lol (for reasons revolving around dkp. Mostly greed).

Rewarding players for their hard work is great, only A) this game isn’t/shouldn’t be a part time job and B) as said previously, what good is that hard work when the items you want are never dropping and all it really does is make people complain?
Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan

Professor/Detective Zkills, op mage of Epona, chieftain of KodiakReavers. Server banned for doing PvP in arena.

Can you do the impossible?
Celtic Heroes Ultimate Challenge

Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#76
Can I just ask how this thread is still going, it’s gone from
1) EPONA IS GOD, VR SHOULD MAKE A NEW SERVER AND FORCE IT TO BE LIKE EPONA
2) okay, maybe Epona isn’t “better,” it just depends on preference
3) okay the game is pretty busted and annoying and slow
4) DOM SERVERS SUCK, HAIL HYDRA, I mean HAIL EPONA
5) okay okay okay, y’all right, it’s just preference. Really no server is right or wrong
6) RNG is a skam

I’m just waiting for difinitus to come in and lock this thread cuz VR sick of our arguments on why the RNG is a joke. Even the war hammer game people supposedly chewed VR out over how lousy CH’s RNG is lel. It’s just a fact at this point .-. They won’t change it tho lel

Anyways, inb4 lock
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Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#77
Zkills wrote:
Shivahh wrote:
Zkills wrote:It’s mostly because people on Epona have learned that it really doesn’t matter if a player who was inactive until recently won. As long as he contributed fairly to the boss then he’s eligible to the loot that boss will drop, as things should be. Activity or clan should not be factors when it comes to obtaining loot from a boss. It should be contributions to the said raid you have given.


Thats arguable seeing as someone that consistently bosses for months on end waiting for that one drop should not be having to share the dice with another who so happened to come back on that day after being gone for a long period of time.

Dkp gets bashed too often but it's only showing a strict but considerable amount of fairness.
Time and effort should be put into consideration which is why there are more servers managing a clan rather than a free server with close to no rules.
Yes epona is in terms of a server big but if you compare epona to the whole of the Celtic Heroes dkp clans it's merely a small margin.
Dkp has its success and it's reasons, there are people who don't want their activity to be in vain.

And on a side note people would much rather see the gear go to the players who use it for the clan not for their personal gain and to show up every so often.

That added randomness of “you don’t know who’s gonna get that great item next” is what makes MMOs so fun and addicting, and it’s fairly common in MMOs. I used this example before, but on a different game I played I had just started playing, after a few days of killing a certain boss casually I happened to get one of the rarest quivers in the game that has a 1/800, or .00125% chance of dropping. A veteran player who was there told me he’s been searching for that quiver for months, killing countless amounts of that boss. Not knowing when or who the drop will go to makes games a whole lot more fun and engaging than knowing who exactly will get a drop. In that same game whenever someone gets a really rare drop everyone else gets excited and trades the person to see if it’s true, and everyone is a pretty good sport about it. It encourages people to be more active and show to more bosses because it’s anyone’s fair game, that’s why you see Epona constantly getting 2+ pages of players for any called raid boss, even up to apparently 100 or so players for Gele.

The only success in dkp is how it can organize clans, but even then that comes at a cost server wide as it will always create a toxic environment and players on the outside get left in the dust. Even within the dkp/dom clan, as I said before, it can create a toxic environment amongst the clan members. Rifts often form between two sides and people often end up leaving the clan as a result, with more severe cases ending up in stolen gear or players leaving upset and causing more chaos just before they leave. Even in your clan acs, after speaking to some members for a while it’s clear that there are some members that do not like each other lol (for reasons revolving around dkp. Mostly greed).

Rewarding players for their hard work is great, only A) this game isn’t/shouldn’t be a part time job and B) as said previously, what good is that hard work when the items you want are never dropping and all it really does is make people complain?


In terms of my clan its a great example to say that not all will agree with how its run and what the rules are and its their free will to take it or leave it, clans will always create an environment that best fits the majority or the members, the minority will always make it look as bad as possible to the publics eye and i can vouch for that in terms of my clan.

dif dont lock this thread i find two perspectives that revolve around epona and rest to be relevant

To go back to your reply though, the reason we have our dominant clan with dkp run is because we are the players that have the preference to prioritize those who put more time into the game and often people seem to say “this and that have no life” or how people seem to deliberately misunderstand players for taking the game as some part time job, those are simply assumptions.
We cant control the players hobbies, what people do after retirement or their daily schedules, if they can manage that then its only making the clan more active.

Sure blame the drop rates but the least we can do as a clan is put ourselves In an environment where we can deliver that one rare drop to the right person.
Ascension

227+ Rogue
221+ Mage
200+ Warrior
220+ Mage
200 Rogue
210+ Druid

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Rogue BT Kill 09/20/2019

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Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#78
Shivahh wrote:
Zkills wrote:
Shivahh wrote:
Thats arguable seeing as someone that consistently bosses for months on end waiting for that one drop should not be having to share the dice with another who so happened to come back on that day after being gone for a long period of time.

Dkp gets bashed too often but it's only showing a strict but considerable amount of fairness.
Time and effort should be put into consideration which is why there are more servers managing a clan rather than a free server with close to no rules.
Yes epona is in terms of a server big but if you compare epona to the whole of the Celtic Heroes dkp clans it's merely a small margin.
Dkp has its success and it's reasons, there are people who don't want their activity to be in vain.

And on a side note people would much rather see the gear go to the players who use it for the clan not for their personal gain and to show up every so often.

That added randomness of “you don’t know who’s gonna get that great item next” is what makes MMOs so fun and addicting, and it’s fairly common in MMOs. I used this example before, but on a different game I played I had just started playing, after a few days of killing a certain boss casually I happened to get one of the rarest quivers in the game that has a 1/800, or .00125% chance of dropping. A veteran player who was there told me he’s been searching for that quiver for months, killing countless amounts of that boss. Not knowing when or who the drop will go to makes games a whole lot more fun and engaging than knowing who exactly will get a drop. In that same game whenever someone gets a really rare drop everyone else gets excited and trades the person to see if it’s true, and everyone is a pretty good sport about it. It encourages people to be more active and show to more bosses because it’s anyone’s fair game, that’s why you see Epona constantly getting 2+ pages of players for any called raid boss, even up to apparently 100 or so players for Gele.

The only success in dkp is how it can organize clans, but even then that comes at a cost server wide as it will always create a toxic environment and players on the outside get left in the dust. Even within the dkp/dom clan, as I said before, it can create a toxic environment amongst the clan members. Rifts often form between two sides and people often end up leaving the clan as a result, with more severe cases ending up in stolen gear or players leaving upset and causing more chaos just before they leave. Even in your clan acs, after speaking to some members for a while it’s clear that there are some members that do not like each other lol (for reasons revolving around dkp. Mostly greed).

Rewarding players for their hard work is great, only A) this game isn’t/shouldn’t be a part time job and B) as said previously, what good is that hard work when the items you want are never dropping and all it really does is make people complain?


In terms of my clan its a great example to say that not all will agree with how its run and what the rules are and its their free will to take it or leave it, clans will always create an environment that best fits the majority or the members, the minority will always make it look as bad as possible to the publics eye and i can vouch for that in terms of my clan.

dif dont lock this thread i find two perspectives that revolve around epona and rest to be relevant

To go back to your reply though, the reason we have our dominant clan with dkp run is because we are the players that have the preference to prioritize those who put more time into the game and often people seem to say “this and that have no life” or how people seem to deliberately misunderstand players for taking the game as some part time job, those are simply assumptions.
We cant control the players hobbies, what people do after retirement or their daily schedules, if they can manage that then its only making the clan more active.

Sure blame the drop rates but the least we can do as a clan is put ourselves In an environment where we can deliver that one rare drop to the right person.

It shouldn’t necessarily be “what can we do as a clan” and instead “what can we do as a server”. It doesn’t have to be the majority getting what they want while the minorities get left out. That gets people upset and it makes people want to quit or leave the server. Probably something your clan and many others don’t need anymore of lol. To put your clan first before the server is a rather selfish way of thinking and it is the reason why so many servers end up going inactive, with people only logging really for bosses and trying to get people to log can sometimes be a pain (you and your clan can probably relate to that lol).

Saying one person deserves a drop over someone else is also a bad way to go about things. People will always disagree and others might think they deserved the drop more and then they start getting upset. Then that negative behavior spreads throughout the entire clan until it burns out, resulting in either someone leaving or people being left with a bad taste in their mouths. It’s not a fun environment to be apart of and is more frustrating than anything. Even with a dkp system, people always get upset when they get outbid by a player who they think won’t use the drop as effectively as they will. Dominance imprinted that toxic mindset of “I deserve more than you” into the minds of the players. You see none of that on Epona because everyone has an equal chance at gear (unless if someone is trying to cheat the system).

I honestly don’t expect for clans to change their ways. This community is far too stubborn for that to happen lol. So VR needs to step in and change the loot distribution if they want to see success (and more $$$ ;) )
Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan

Professor/Detective Zkills, op mage of Epona, chieftain of KodiakReavers. Server banned for doing PvP in arena.

Can you do the impossible?
Celtic Heroes Ultimate Challenge

Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#79
Zkills wrote:If you look at the outcomes in terms of the games health both provide, you’ll see that free servers are in fact better. From VRs perspective, free servers generate more money because of the good economy. From our perspective more plat buyers mean a great economy and more money in VRs pocket, encouraging them not to completely leave out Celtic Heroes and develop more content for us which is more important than ever with Warhammer being developed.


The thing I keep coming back to is that all the assumptions I see are based on Epona. Epona is really the main option for a free server, so it is going to attract way more attention and experienced players, and therefore isn't really a fair/accurate example of the "free" system.
"Free servers generate more money" is one way to say it, but I think it would be more accurate to say that "Epona attracts more experienced CH players who are more likely to buy plat for the in-game advantage". That may definitely be because of the free system, which is great, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the system would work if it were applied across more servers - the base data (the players) seems rigged in favor of Epona.


If you took Epona's free system and tried to implement it on a different server with an average number of CH players, it may not work out quite as well. Also, it depends on the players themselves. Epona was lucky enough to have enough endgame players agree to that system to make it succeed. Other servers may not necessarily work out, because of whatever reasons - whether because of DKP's guaranteed reward for the effort, preferring the competition between clans, or whatever the reason may be.
Have questions about anything? PM me!
Alternatively, you can occasionally find me online in Sulis.
Go team #WorldSkillsUSA2019!
Harbinger of cold hard logic and reason.
Check out the player-run Celtic Heroes Database!: celticheroesdb.com!

Re: LETS MAKE EPONA 2

#80
Eragon123 wrote:
Zkills wrote:If you look at the outcomes in terms of the games health both provide, you’ll see that free servers are in fact better. From VRs perspective, free servers generate more money because of the good economy. From our perspective more plat buyers mean a great economy and more money in VRs pocket, encouraging them not to completely leave out Celtic Heroes and develop more content for us which is more important than ever with Warhammer being developed.


The thing I keep coming back to is that all the assumptions I see are based on Epona. Epona is really the main option for a free server, so it is going to attract way more attention and experienced players, and therefore isn't really a fair/accurate example of the "free" system.
"Free servers generate more money" is one way to say it, but I think it would be more accurate to say that "Epona attracts more experienced CH players who are more likely to buy plat for the in-game advantage". That may definitely be because of the free system, which is great, but that doesn't necessarily mean that the system would work if it were applied across more servers - the base data (the players) seems rigged in favor of Epona.


If you took Epona's free system and tried to implement it on a different server with an average number of CH players, it may not work out quite as well. Also, it depends on the players themselves. Epona was lucky enough to have enough endgame players agree to that system to make it succeed. Other servers may not necessarily work out, because of whatever reasons - whether because of DKP's guaranteed reward for the effort, preferring the competition between clans, or whatever the reason may be.

It wouldn’t exactly be Epona’s system, because their system is indeed flawed and allows for greed/corruption. But it is currently the best solution we have at this time. Dominance simply has many more problems than a free server does. It may not seem like it for a full Dg player swimming in enough dkp points to get whatever they want, but the problems are most certainly there. Usually when people approach the top of the world, their success starts to blind them and they fail to see the problems that were left behind, and it eventually will come back to bite them in the ass lol.

My proposal will basically make every server literally free. The point is to prevent players from placing restrictions over the distribution of loot which they currently have in their control and to stop greed/corruption from having a hand on how loot gets distributed and who gets to be apart of it. Would solve so many problems we are currently facing in this game
Zkills, Proud general of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus, the G.O.A.T clan

Professor/Detective Zkills, op mage of Epona, chieftain of KodiakReavers. Server banned for doing PvP in arena.

Can you do the impossible?
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