Celtic Heroes

The Official Forum for Celtic Heroes, the 3D MMORPG for iOS and Android Devices

Pay to Win

#11
A lot of the “pay to win” discussion has to do with how each person personally defines that term. One person may think of “pay to win as one thing, and therefore the game is pay to win....but another person may not see it that way.

In response to be0wulf...yes, it is nearly impossible to play the game past midgame without using premium items. No one doubts that. If you consider using elixirs (regardless of whether you buy them from the platinum shop or from other players) as “pay to win” then yes, the game would be pay to win in your opinion. Other people may define “pay to win” as being forced to pay real money to make any progression...and that’s not the case with Celtic Heroes, like Difinitus said, almost every premium item can be traded for in game...so you can get yourself pretty well geared out without spending any real money.

My stance on the situtation is along the same lines as Bob’s...the game is pay to win in the sense that someone has to pay, not necessarily you. I’m not really a huge fan of that system, but at the same time...it makes sense. The game has to generate income somehow. As long the normal player themself isn’t forced to spend money to progress, I think it’s still a decent system.
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Re: Why does the game never advertise?

#12
Eragon123 wrote:My stance on the situtation is along the same lines as Bob’s...the game is pay to win in the sense that someone has to pay, not necessarily you. I’m not really a huge fan of that system, but at the same time...it makes sense. The game has to generate income somehow. As long the normal player themself isn’t forced to spend money to progress, I think it’s still a decent system.

When you say “someone has to pay” wouldn’t that make it more along the lines of pay to play? People are getting the definition of pay to win mixed up. It’s a very broad version of pay to play because people here are right, killing some bosses without elixirs is impossible I assume, and those elixirs come from plat. But since elixirs are so excessable ingame without spending anything, it weirdly puts this game in the middle of free to play and pay to play.

As I said earlier. A pay to win would be like if elixirs were only purchasable with straight cash, can’t be bought with plat and can’t be traded with other players, player bound, and so only those who can spend money can use them. That would create a very unfair advantage for spenders over free to play players since lixs are so powerful. The most widely excepted definition of p2w goes as so, “players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free
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Re: Why does the game never advertise?

#13
Zkills wrote:
Eragon123 wrote:My stance on the situtation is along the same lines as Bob’s...the game is pay to win in the sense that someone has to pay, not necessarily you. I’m not really a huge fan of that system, but at the same time...it makes sense. The game has to generate income somehow. As long the normal player themself isn’t forced to spend money to progress, I think it’s still a decent system.

When you say “someone has to pay” wouldn’t that make it more along the lines of pay to play? People are getting the definition of pay to win mixed up. It’s a very broad version of pay to play because people here are right, killing some bosses without elixirs is impossible I assume, and those elixirs come from plat. But since elixirs are so excessable ingame without spending anything, it weirdly puts this game in the middle of free to play and pay to play.

As I said earlier. A pay to win would be like if elixirs were only purchasable with straight cash, can’t be bought with plat and can’t be traded with other players, player bound, and so only those who can spend money can use them. That would create a very unfair advantage for spenders over free to play players since lixs are so powerful. The most widely excepted definition of p2w goes as so, “players who are willing to pay for special items or downloadable content may be able to gain a significant advantage over those playing for free


Yeah, pay to play might be a little closer to CH's situation than pay to win. I just stuck with the same term because everyone else is using it and I didn't want to throw more terminology out there for people to debate :lol:

Like you said, CH is in a weird position because the average player doesn't have to pay anything to be able to play through the game and enjoy it...enough other people do pay, and keep the game running (both the playerbase and the company). hotbar slots are really the only exception, and isn't a vitally important one imo (I know certain people ;) feel strongly about hotswapping gear, but if someone is that dedicated to being the absolute best they can possibly be, shelling out $5 or doing some free plat offers is easy enough). For the vast majority of players, the game can be enjoyed and played through without paying any real money. Is it harder? Absolutely, but that's kinda the point. Premium purchases are generally there to make the game easier.


Game terminology is a tricky beast because the meaning usually changes slightly from game to game, depending on game functionality and even each player's opinions of that functionality.
Eragon123 - lvl 220 ranger
Zamorak1 - lvl 220 mage
A few others
SoldiersofJah - Sulis

Sneaky o.O
Have questions about anything? PM me!

Schwing wrote:You’re hired.

Celtic Heroes Item Database #WorldSkillsUSA

Re: Why does the game never advertise?

#14
bob the mage wrote:
Zkills wrote:
Apples-Bele wrote:And there’s best in slot items that are only available through plat so I’ll always consider the game p2w unless that changes

You don’t need hotbar slots to go far. Assuming that’s what you’re saying. Sure it makes things a lot easier, but you definitely don’t need it to reach the top. Unless if the top for you is being the best possible dps/healer/whatever you can be, but even then it wouldn’t be pay to win because you’re not necessarily winning anything significant over other players that gives you an unfair advantage.

Hotbars needed to hotswap, hotswapping needed to compete at EG and Midgame.
The game is pay to win, but not everyone has to pay, but someone somewhere does. Everyone assumes that just because a game needs people to pay some money in it somewhere it is a bad game. How does this make sense? The game has to stay afloat somehow...
CH is pay to win, if no one pays the game collapses from the players side. This isn’t a bad thing though and I’d argue CH is reasonably balanced. Not everyone has to pay, only a small portion do, and overall anyone can get to EG without paying.

Yes that’s what I mean! Someone has to pay but overall the game is very f2p friendly, but imo still p2w aspects
fix the skill and swap delay lag thx

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Re: Why does the game never advertise?

#15
Apples-Bele wrote:
bob the mage wrote:
Zkills wrote:You don’t need hotbar slots to go far. Assuming that’s what you’re saying. Sure it makes things a lot easier, but you definitely don’t need it to reach the top. Unless if the top for you is being the best possible dps/healer/whatever you can be, but even then it wouldn’t be pay to win because you’re not necessarily winning anything significant over other players that gives you an unfair advantage.

Hotbars needed to hotswap, hotswapping needed to compete at EG and Midgame.
The game is pay to win, but not everyone has to pay, but someone somewhere does. Everyone assumes that just because a game needs people to pay some money in it somewhere it is a bad game. How does this make sense? The game has to stay afloat somehow...
CH is pay to win, if no one pays the game collapses from the players side. This isn’t a bad thing though and I’d argue CH is reasonably balanced. Not everyone has to pay, only a small portion do, and overall anyone can get to EG without paying.

Yes that’s what I mean! Someone has to pay but overall the game is very f2p friendly, but imo still p2w aspects

Pay to play, not pay to win. Read previous posts for reference
Zkills level 111 warrior, Proud general/last active member of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus.

Zkills, new mage of Epona, chieftain of KodiakReavers

Can you do the impossible?
Celtic Heroes Ultimate Challenge

Re: Why does the game never advertise?

#16
Zkills wrote:
Apples-Bele wrote:
bob the mage wrote:Hotbars needed to hotswap, hotswapping needed to compete at EG and Midgame.
The game is pay to win, but not everyone has to pay, but someone somewhere does. Everyone assumes that just because a game needs people to pay some money in it somewhere it is a bad game. How does this make sense? The game has to stay afloat somehow...
CH is pay to win, if no one pays the game collapses from the players side. This isn’t a bad thing though and I’d argue CH is reasonably balanced. Not everyone has to pay, only a small portion do, and overall anyone can get to EG without paying.

Yes that’s what I mean! Someone has to pay but overall the game is very f2p friendly, but imo still p2w aspects

Pay to play, not pay to win. Read previous posts for reference


Do you mind explaining pay to play Zkills? I am a little confused myself as when I think of pay to play it's either you can't reasonably play the game without paying something (using premium items) to make the experience bearable, or enjoyable in any way, or of course straight up pay to play would be would be you have to buy the game to play it. But that's still confusing to me. You can definitively have fun playing CH even without any premium items at all, you might just have to have fun hunting frozen and DL and maxing out those battle companions instead of killing it at EG. Winning for me is getting to the end of the game therefore since premium are required for endgame I consider that more ptw then ptp.

Using your own definition for ptw there is still the question of is it an unfair advantage for people who pay to progress at a significantly faster rate than those who don't, as that is seemingly the only real difference. If your not buying plat, you have to farm for everything others just buy, and each hour you farm they are presumably getting further and further ahead, so they will likely reach EG days or weeks before those who don't and have much better gear. If anything time is the ultimate advantage in this game as with enough time you can do anything and you can do nothing without it, so the more time you save and gain, the better off you are.

The other thing that gets me is the fact that buying plat is more efficient than just playing the game. Lixing is essentially worth 45 mins of your time, and I'm pretty sure with minimum wage people make more than enough for that.

Difinitus wrote:
Eragon123 wrote:
Razazam wrote:
Not gonna lie, this game is 100% pay to win.


I agree that the game is pay to win in the sense that it is nearly impossible to progress past midgame without using premium items...but you personally don’t really have to pay...someone else can, and then sell you the stuff for ingame gold. Sure, it’s easier if you buy it yourself, saves time farming, but it still is possible to do well without paying a cent.


So simply put, not at all.

It is possible to achieve the best gear and even own shop items without spending any real currency, and many of our high level players do that.


It would be helpful to include a specific definition when making such bold posts Difinitus, especially considering the significant amount of different understandings people are likely to have of the term. Also, if I understand your position correctly it is that something is only pay to win if there are things that are only obtainable in the game by paying real money for. Now technically I can see that anything in the game is obtainable without personally paying real money for it, however I always like to include a reasonable amount of reason and reasonability while analysing something, as I'm sure you also do, so while it is mathematically possible for a ftp player to get any item in the game is it reasonable? In other words, is there a reasonable way for a ftp player (and no grinding/merching the crap out of the hell of this game for however many thousands of hours is not reasonable) to obtain a maxed out dragon pet? I think 2.5m is actually a reasonable amount of gold for an egg so if you need 36 eggs that's a grand total of 90m. Now that is possible, heck I'm sure some players have that much. Ftp? I don't know if someone's gotten that far but is it reasonable...

Re: Why does the game never advertise?

#18
SamySamSamBoss2000 wrote:
Zkills wrote:
Apples-Bele wrote:Yes that’s what I mean! Someone has to pay but overall the game is very f2p friendly, but imo still p2w aspects

Pay to play, not pay to win. Read previous posts for reference


Do you mind explaining pay to play Zkills? I am a little confused myself as when I think of pay to play it's either you can't reasonably play the game without paying something (using premium items) to make the experience bearable, or enjoyable in any way, or of course straight up pay to play would be would be you have to buy the game to play it. But that's still confusing to me. You can definitively have fun playing CH even without any premium items at all, you might just have to have fun hunting frozen and DL and maxing out those battle companions instead of killing it at EG. Winning for me is getting to the end of the game therefore since premium are required for endgame I consider that more ptw then ptp.

Using your own definition for ptw there is still the question of is it an unfair advantage for people who pay to progress at a significantly faster rate than those who don't, as that is seemingly the only real difference. If your not buying plat, you have to farm for everything others just buy, and each hour you farm they are presumably getting further and further ahead, so they will likely reach EG days or weeks before those who don't and have much better gear. If anything time is the ultimate advantage in this game as with enough time you can do anything and you can do nothing without it, so the more time you save and gain, the better off you are.

You said it yourself, “premium items are required for endgame”. Since it’s a requirement that would be pay to play aspects, not pay to win. Pay to win is giving spenders a significant advantage over free to play players. That significant advantage is nonexistent because of the fact that premium items are so incredibly easy to obtain without spending a dime. With that out of the way let’s go back to the pay to play aspects. This game weirdly falls in between pay to play and free to play, this is because while premium items that can only be obtained through money purchases are required for endgame (literally some bosses can’t be killed without premium items), it is still very easy to obtain premium items without spending a dime. So yes, someone has to pay but that doesn’t include all hence why this game falls inbetween free to play and pay to play.

As for progression between plat buyers and free to play players, while plat buyers can get to endgame faster that doesn’t necessarily make things pay to win... it’s just pay to progress faster lol, almost every single MMO is like this. Pay to win would be giving plat buyers a significant advantage over free to play players because only plat buyers can have access to those boosts, but since pretty much every premium item is tradeable and there’s a large abundance of premium items this game is no where near pay to win. Then there are upgrades such as hotbar slots which aren’t tradeable and can only be obtained through plat... but since plat can very easily be obtained through chests bought with gold or free plat offers, it rules out pay to win there as well. Not to mention they’re only 3 plat each lol.
Zkills level 111 warrior, Proud general/last active member of the beloved KodiakReavers of Belenus.

Zkills, new mage of Epona, chieftain of KodiakReavers

Can you do the impossible?
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Re: Pay to Win

#19
I feel like I respond to these kinda of threads at least once a week.

Can we please end this here lol

Pay to win is when there is something that must be obtained by money, and isnt tradeable, gives an unfair advantage and is a REQUIREMENT to be the best you can possibly be. Free to win players CAN USE PLAT ITEMS obtained from other players. They just cant buy the plat themselves. Hotbar slots you get from opening chests, thats how I did it on several alts and maximized my auction house slots on one too. I used to be the best mage in the entire game, and am currently at a net worth of around 750 million. ALL WITHOUT BUYING PLAT. Please, no more p2w threads...

Please refer anyone who says the game is P2W to these videos:
Merching(episodes 1-57 atm) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2XjIDBd ... 2WMVzDEayD
Rags to Riches 2(lv1/0g to eg eventually) - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B8jl8iP ... p4tmsjJk1t
Crop Farming Guide - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ulMgwn8fiVA
Cooking Guide - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Oyf5KcWzY8
Fishing Guide - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlHU2Bo5MgU
World - Lugh
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Re: Why does the game never advertise?

#20
Zkills wrote:
SamySamSamBoss2000 wrote:
Zkills wrote:Pay to play, not pay to win. Read previous posts for reference


Do you mind explaining pay to play Zkills? I am a little confused myself as when I think of pay to play it's either you can't reasonably play the game without paying something (using premium items) to make the experience bearable, or enjoyable in any way, or of course straight up pay to play would be would be you have to buy the game to play it. But that's still confusing to me. You can definitively have fun playing CH even without any premium items at all, you might just have to have fun hunting frozen and DL and maxing out those battle companions instead of killing it at EG. Winning for me is getting to the end of the game therefore since premium are required for endgame I consider that more ptw then ptp.

Using your own definition for ptw there is still the question of is it an unfair advantage for people who pay to progress at a significantly faster rate than those who don't, as that is seemingly the only real difference. If your not buying plat, you have to farm for everything others just buy, and each hour you farm they are presumably getting further and further ahead, so they will likely reach EG days or weeks before those who don't and have much better gear. If anything time is the ultimate advantage in this game as with enough time you can do anything and you can do nothing without it, so the more time you save and gain, the better off you are.

You said it yourself, “premium items are required for endgame”. Since it’s a requirement that would be pay to play aspects, not pay to win. Pay to win is giving spenders a significant advantage over free to play players. That significant advantage is nonexistent because of the fact that premium items are so incredibly easy to obtain without spending a dime. With that out of the way let’s go back to the pay to play aspects. This game weirdly falls in between pay to play and free to play, this is because while premium items that can only be obtained through money purchases are required for endgame (literally some bosses can’t be killed without premium items), it is still very easy to obtain premium items without spending a dime. So yes, someone has to pay but that doesn’t include all hence why this game falls inbetween free to play and pay to play.

As for progression between plat buyers and free to play players, while plat buyers can get to endgame faster that doesn’t necessarily make things pay to win... it’s just pay to progress faster lol, almost every single MMO is like this. Pay to win would be giving plat buyers a significant advantage over free to play players because only plat buyers can have access to those boosts, but since pretty much every premium item is tradeable and there’s a large abundance of premium items this game is no where near pay to win. Then there are upgrades such as hotbar slots which aren’t tradeable and can only be obtained through plat... but since plat can very easily be obtained through chests bought with gold or free plat offers, it rules out pay to win there as well. Not to mention they’re only 3 plat each lol.


Could you please explain your definition of pay to play, I have no idea what it is right now. AfaIc pay to play is literally where you need to pay to play the game. Any game you have to buy could really be in this category, but specifically I see it referring to games such as WOW, (and I think ESO is also like this) where you either have to pay a subscription, or in some other way have to keep paying to play the game. Like I said, in CH you can play as long as you want and keep having fun without spending a penny, or even needing to use plat items. So by the definition above CH isn't pay to play. But please if you classify pay to play a different way please explain it as I have no clear idea what it is through

As for pay to win, using your definition still leaves up to ones interpretation what an unfair advantage is. I could argue that since people who buy plat have the ability to progress much faster than those who don't, (even if I can buy lixes and jewelry I have to farm all that gold and a plat buyer can have it instantly or after selling a dozen chests) they get an unfair advantage even if everyone has access to the same gear because they can get it so much faster and easier than everyone else. The speed in itself can be an unfair advantage. I personally call this game "pay to win faster" (I would also use "more efficiently" as I find it describes it better but it doesn't have the ring to it so), not "pay to win". But there's also the fact that it is more efficient, and you will progress faster by paying, playing and working for the money you just used than using all that time to actually play. Winning I consider as reaching end game and optimizing your character to the amount that you want and the reason I don't say it is straight up pay to win is because it is possible to achieve that without paying. It is however much more difficult and imo unreasonable to assume most players will be able to "win" without paying anything. So since it is unreasonable for the average player to reach EG without paying I totally understand those who say it is, because it even thought paying doesn't give any unattainable advantage compare to ftp players it allows them to attain a goal which ftp players cannot reasonably attain.

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