Celtic Heroes

First off I'm just going to state, I know this is just MY opinion and A LOT of people disagree so I'm not going to argue because it'll be moot. Also this will by highly hypothetical and pretty illogical, but the fact it is possible, IMO goes to show/proves that the game IS NOT pay to win and is more "freemium"; the two can coincide but in the case of CH I don't believe that is true. This is more for newer players as well to get an idea of what to expect. I personally consider pay to win as a player needing to pay to become a top tier player (YOU paying, it does not matter if someone else does) and freemium as free to play and pay for an advantage. I simply see it this way because I've played other games that YOU specifically MUST pay in order to become a top tier player, you can not buy the things needed in game through other players like you can in CH.
Just as a point of reference and from my experience I'll give my character information. I'm currently level 210, have about 4k or so hp sigils, 2k energy sigils, am in an end game clan, have plenty of cash, quality items and just about all the plat items I could ever need (hundreds of lixes and thousands of ancient idols/restores). I have only spent ~$20 on plat and that was a LONG time ago when I was about level 60 or so and as far as I'm concerned had very little effect on my overall progress.

Important plat items that are commonly used and debated when people say CH is pay to win:
XP lixes
idols
Haste lixes
restores
sigils
regen lixes

XP lixes, the most important thing to note about these is that they are NOT required OR needed. They make you level at 4-5 times the normal rate and usually aren't used until later on, I suggest level 100-120ish but others do use them sooner. Like I mentioned though they aren't needed. I know of multiple characters who have leveled to 180-200 without using xp lixes, sure it takes A LOT longer, and like I mentioned before is somewhat illogical to use because they're so beneficial, but they are not required.

idols-Idols aren't necessarily needed either but I'll tell you right now if you don't use them the game will become extremely frustrating really easily unless you're used to playing more hardcore games like that. They're mainly useful while leveling and during boss fights so you do not have to run all the way back to where you were. This is where it gets a little more tricky because even though idols are not required, at higher levels it's somewhat implied and assumed you will have them and use them. In my mind buying them from another player still keeps the game from being pay to win, but for arguments sake I'll ignore that, meaning the ONLY other option would be native X or other free platinum offers. Similarly with not using xp lixes this is pretty illogical but it is a possibility and becomes much more realistic if you have multiple devices to get even more free plat.

Haste lixes (mainly in regards to raid bosses)-Higher leveled bosses at end game level have become more difficult since u4 when rage timers were implemented because you essentially now had a time limit on the boss of 20 minutes. This, in my opinion, is the MOST pay to win part of the game however there are still ways around it. Just like idols you can buy them via another player, or get them via free plat offers.

Restores/Regen lixes and sigils-The only reason I'm combining these 3 are simply because my response and view to them is relatively similar. These items are more so a luxury than anything and by no means are needed to even play the game successfully. I never really even used restores until around level 160+ or so after the Carrow update and my primary reason for using them was the money bosses. Using restores I was able to solo the majority/all of the money bosses as well as other bosses so they seemed more beneficial and worth the cost to me. The same concept applies with regen lixes and sigils, they're beneficial for solo play and make your life easier. You can buy them from other players, OR through free plat offers as well.

Now even though some of these items are assumed to be used at higher levels NONE of them are needed and they can ALL be obtained via another player or free platinum offers. Not using them or trying to obtain everything from free platinum offers isn't the best idea, but technically it can be done. My only point is for whoever is wondering or considering playing the game YOU do not have have to pay ANY money to become a top tier, end game player. In reality others have to pay to make them game function, in theory it wouldn't have to be if everyone used free plat offers but the game would suck because plat would be extremely limited. This game is a huge grind and the 220+ levels required to get to the end game status is pretty ridiculous and tedious (at 210 I get about 6-7% per super xp lix, that's about 15 per level or 150 from 210-220, probably a bit more, and is equal to about 600k, give or take which grinding for money is pretty tedious as well) and currently there is a big lack of a story line, quests, and other horizontal content but that should change to an extent by the end of this year. So if you are considering this game, just know it is possible to become an end game player without spending any money but if you do spend money (and it would have to be hundreds/thousands if you're trying to reach end game status as fast as you can) it will only speed up the long process.

Y'all can debate this amongst yourselves if you so desire, criticize what I'm saying, debate it, agree, add input or your opinions, I do not care but this is just my view as why CH is not really a pay to win game and why I see it as freemium based and is to help newer players have a better understanding of what to expect as far as the IAP parts of the game are concerned.

Using plat items whether bought by in-game gold or by platinum is essentially the same. If theyre necessary to kill bosses, it is a pay to win scenario.

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Bourne everthing you have said is correct and theoretically anyone CAN get to 210 with no Plat items. But the fact no one has done shows me this is so close to 0% probability as to be a moot point.

I also see what you are saying when you distinguish between YOU getting to level 210 paying zero RL money for your Plat items and some one else paying for your Plat items with THEIR RL $.
I just don't know if that distinction is worth making.

Maybe this is just an agree to disagree situation. Do you feel people are attacking OTM when they talk about Pay to Win? I suppose some are.

For many people the fact remains that there is no realistic way to keep even close to the main "wave" of high levels (currently 190 to 210 I suppose) without using Plat items. So to me it is not just some vague advantage that real money (whoever spends it) is buying it is just a regular gameplay necessity.

In some way this game is a pyramid scheme with new players (and some richer older ones) funding the bulk of the higher levels. What happens when there are less low levels joining to buy the Rems, Tabs, Crests and Urns etc etc? The higher levels will have to buy Plat and decide if this is a Pay to Play game.

So for me this is a Pay to Play not just a Pay to Win game.

@Landoril
It's definitely an agree to disagree situation which is why I made a point not to argue it because it's just a difference of opinions of a persons definition of pay to win, so like you said arguing is moot.

I do feel like some use it as an excuse to bash OTM which in someways it is justified because like I said their is little to no story line, questing, or horizontal content and it's primarily an 'endless grind'. Although maybe I'm misinterpreting how people are saying it. Also I've seen a few posts about newer players asking about getting to end game level and I have played games before where you are unable to purchase IAP things with in game cash which is a big reason I really like CH. So it was also supposed to be informative to them to get a sense of what IAP are like for CH.

In a way you're right though, plat items almost do become a necessity but in reality they aren't IMO they just make the game function a lot better. It's just a mindset the player base has become accustomed to and how the game mechanics have developed making it more and more necessary to use plat items but still not technically 100% required

You're confusing 'Pay to win' with 'Pay to play'.

You're confusing 'Pay to win' with 'Pay to play'.

Me? How so, I don't see it that way at all. However I think I may see what you mean and how you'd see it that way. How do you perceive the different playing/paying categories? Im curious

Ive made it to 201 without buying plat but I have used plat items

Here's another question/way to look at it. Lots of people don't buy plat but use plat items since they're so easily available. What do you think it would be like if plat wasn't easily available or couldn't be purchased with ingame cash. IMO it would obviously pretty much suck and be really frustrating, but you could get to end game status, do you think anyone would ACTUALLY go that far though without buying plat? I'd assume a few players would but not nearly as many as there currently are.

I think you should determine how much spending money will help you advance compared to someone who doesn't.

Thinks to consider are:
- How easy it is to farm vs how much things like luxury items cost
- Difficulty of progressing through the game (in terms of levels) with or without spending money

Stuff like that.

In any game you can of course eventually be as good as anyone with enough effort, so therefore nothing is pay to win, right?

I'd disagree with the last part. I'll just use an example, I used to play a game on iPhone called "Ninja Royale". I enjoyed the game and it had somewhat of a story line and I just liked the concept and overall dynamic of the game. After I leveled up more in the game and advanced it became pretty clear that the company running the game was strictly trying to milk players for money. There were events, when I first started I thought they lasted like 2-3 weeks with at least a few days in between each event. Later on though the events seemed to be every week with only a day or two inbetween. You could get some really good rewards from these events, but to get those rewards you had to place within a certain rank compared to every other player. The players who paid to get more opportunities or whatever it was (I don't remember exactly) dominated and there was simply no way I could compete anymore and was pretty much at a plateau. There was an obvious difference between players who paid and those who didn't. This is just one personal example and there may or may not be other games like that and maybe that game has changed, I don't know seeing as I stopped playing it years ago. Maybe my perception of things are skewed from my experience with that game and I'm using it too much to relate to how other games function. That's how I personally see it though and why I view CH like this. I understand where you're coming from though I believe as well. Plat items may not be necessary but they're pretty dang close.