Celtic Heroes

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Re: Will the Frozen / DL Bottleneck be addressed?

#41
bob the mage wrote:
paggasquid wrote:
bob the mage wrote:The only time a DL “bottleneck” occurs is when a clan dominates the bosses and another struggles to lock them to get drops. Otherwise there is a decent share of drops between clans and it is less of a bottleneck and more of a challenge to getting EG gear.

Adding more 6*s? If other clan locks 2% of 6*s for example, around arawn stat, then yes they would get a few more, but to say that helps the bottleneck is pretty ridiculous.

Shorter spawn time? It just means you have to camp the boss more often, something no one wants and will just add more meaning to the name “Celtic camping.”

The point is the bottleneck doesn’t exist because the game is flawed heavily. A bottleneck would be, for example, if DG was required to move on. It’s drop rates are so low that maybe 20-25 sets are possible a year.
I get adjusting frozen due to player increase, specifically the orb problem... but dL doesn’t really have a bottleneck. Any of the “fixes” will just result in more of the same.


Furthermore, bottlenecks at lower level armor bosses are ESSENTIAL to any MMO, otherwise players will speed level to EG, get sick of waiting for EG gear, or get geared if difficulty for game is low, get bored, and quit.
Bottlenecks force players to progress at a much more reasonable pace so they spend time at each stage, EG isn’t the only part of the game, otherwise why not just start everyone off at EG...


On Lugh we dominate sreng/snorri and I can assure you it is still a bottle neck. It still takes 3+ weeks to get a ranger or rogue weapon set( and thats a very positive estimate...).

I do not agree that a bottle necks at mid and lower levels are good for the game. It prevents people from actually moving forward to the better higher level content. And do people actually spend more time camping frozen and dl to get their weapons? Or does it just cater to the rich or people relying on the more active players in a clan?

If everyone is rushed right to EG they fizzle out quicker... ya everyone wants to win the game in 1 week... but then they stop playing a week later. Small bottlenecks, like dL weapons, allow for clans to move forward those that put in the work and allows for players to progress but not accelerated from day one to EG.

While it would be nice to put dL weapons on my rogue, it’s unrealisitc. We don’t even gear rogue alts with frozen dagger usually.

“Bottlenecks” are really just an illusion most of the time due to impatience. Players get used to met and warden being given with no work put in and quick leveling and when they get to 130 and are told that it may take 1-2 months to move on they flip out. Most MMOs/RPG’s you don’t “complete” in 2 weeks, or even 2 months. Then after frozen dL armor is pretty much not a bottleneck, if your clan has difficulty gearing DL armor it isn’t due to drop rates but rather locking rate. DL weapons are a small bottleneck, which while being a “status symbol” is also a way to keep players engaged with the game. Players feel tied to the game because they are working towards something that is a pretty OP reward.
I’ll agree drop rates could be shifted slightly, key word is slightly, so it’s possible for some more alts who have put in the time to get weapons, but if you remove the challenge then players may not stick around.

And I got my dl armor on rogue and mage and weapons on mage in a small clan of 8 people, so don’t say i’m Only saying this because I’m in a large clan. The game needs a degree of difficulty and something to separate older players from brand new players, and that thing is time, small “bottlenecks” create this slight separation.



As long as it is possible to lix to 220 within a few weeks players are able to quickly reach end game anyway. Therefore, it's flatly wrong to claim that bottlenecks will somehow prevent people from rushing to end game. These bottlenecks only result in frustrated level 220s using outdated weaponry to defeat the newer eg content (gele, prot etc) and having to make locker alts that also need gearing, resulting in an endless cycle which is boring over long periods of time.

I also think you're confusing challenge with chance. Snorri isn't a challenging boss. It's not challenging to lock nor to kill. The "challenge" is actually the drop rates which all come down to chance. Many eg clans still have long waiting times for dl weapons because of this. The "challenge" that you're worried will disappear is not a challenge at all, rather it's simply a roadblock caused by unfavourable drop rates and the constant placeholders.

Most MMOs/RPG’s you don’t “complete” in 2 weeks, or even 2 months.

This is because theres horizontal content that keeps players engaged. It has nothing to do with slow gearing that's a result of a bossing system where you essentially roll the dice and hope something useful drops.
Soldiersofjah

Ranger lvl 223
Mage lvl 220


Sulis

Re: Will the Frozen / DL Bottleneck be addressed?

#42
Divine Ranger wrote:
bob the mage wrote:
paggasquid wrote:
On Lugh we dominate sreng/snorri and I can assure you it is still a bottle neck. It still takes 3+ weeks to get a ranger or rogue weapon set( and thats a very positive estimate...).

I do not agree that a bottle necks at mid and lower levels are good for the game. It prevents people from actually moving forward to the better higher level content. And do people actually spend more time camping frozen and dl to get their weapons? Or does it just cater to the rich or people relying on the more active players in a clan?

If everyone is rushed right to EG they fizzle out quicker... ya everyone wants to win the game in 1 week... but then they stop playing a week later. Small bottlenecks, like dL weapons, allow for clans to move forward those that put in the work and allows for players to progress but not accelerated from day one to EG.

While it would be nice to put dL weapons on my rogue, it’s unrealisitc. We don’t even gear rogue alts with frozen dagger usually.

“Bottlenecks” are really just an illusion most of the time due to impatience. Players get used to met and warden being given with no work put in and quick leveling and when they get to 130 and are told that it may take 1-2 months to move on they flip out. Most MMOs/RPG’s you don’t “complete” in 2 weeks, or even 2 months. Then after frozen dL armor is pretty much not a bottleneck, if your clan has difficulty gearing DL armor it isn’t due to drop rates but rather locking rate. DL weapons are a small bottleneck, which while being a “status symbol” is also a way to keep players engaged with the game. Players feel tied to the game because they are working towards something that is a pretty OP reward.
I’ll agree drop rates could be shifted slightly, key word is slightly, so it’s possible for some more alts who have put in the time to get weapons, but if you remove the challenge then players may not stick around.

And I got my dl armor on rogue and mage and weapons on mage in a small clan of 8 people, so don’t say i’m Only saying this because I’m in a large clan. The game needs a degree of difficulty and something to separate older players from brand new players, and that thing is time, small “bottlenecks” create this slight separation.



As long as it is possible to lix to 220 within a few weeks players are able to quickly reach end game anyway. Therefore, it's flatly wrong to claim that bottlenecks will somehow prevent people from rushing to end game. These bottlenecks only result in frustrated level 220s using outdated weaponry to defeat the newer eg content (gele, prot etc) and having to make locker alts that also need gearing, resulting in an endless cycle which is boring over long periods of time.

I also think you're confusing challenge with chance. Snorri isn't a challenging boss. It's not challenging to lock nor to kill. The "challenge" is actually the drop rates which all come down to chance. Many eg clans still have long waiting times for dl weapons because of this. The "challenge" that you're worried will disappear is not a challenge at all, rather it's simply a roadblock caused by unfavourable drop rates and the constant placeholders.

Most MMOs/RPG’s you don’t “complete” in 2 weeks, or even 2 months.

This is because theres horizontal content that keeps players engaged. It has nothing to do with slow gearing that's a result of a bossing system where you essentially roll the dice and hope something useful drops.


Divine ranger is spot on. The goal of the game is not to get dl weapons, it’s to kill raid bosses.
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Re: Will the Frozen / DL Bottleneck be addressed?

#43
paggasquid wrote:
Divine Ranger wrote:
bob the mage wrote:If everyone is rushed right to EG they fizzle out quicker... ya everyone wants to win the game in 1 week... but then they stop playing a week later. Small bottlenecks, like dL weapons, allow for clans to move forward those that put in the work and allows for players to progress but not accelerated from day one to EG.

While it would be nice to put dL weapons on my rogue, it’s unrealisitc. We don’t even gear rogue alts with frozen dagger usually.

“Bottlenecks” are really just an illusion most of the time due to impatience. Players get used to met and warden being given with no work put in and quick leveling and when they get to 130 and are told that it may take 1-2 months to move on they flip out. Most MMOs/RPG’s you don’t “complete” in 2 weeks, or even 2 months. Then after frozen dL armor is pretty much not a bottleneck, if your clan has difficulty gearing DL armor it isn’t due to drop rates but rather locking rate. DL weapons are a small bottleneck, which while being a “status symbol” is also a way to keep players engaged with the game. Players feel tied to the game because they are working towards something that is a pretty OP reward.
I’ll agree drop rates could be shifted slightly, key word is slightly, so it’s possible for some more alts who have put in the time to get weapons, but if you remove the challenge then players may not stick around.

And I got my dl armor on rogue and mage and weapons on mage in a small clan of 8 people, so don’t say i’m Only saying this because I’m in a large clan. The game needs a degree of difficulty and something to separate older players from brand new players, and that thing is time, small “bottlenecks” create this slight separation.



As long as it is possible to lix to 220 within a few weeks players are able to quickly reach end game anyway. Therefore, it's flatly wrong to claim that bottlenecks will somehow prevent people from rushing to end game. These bottlenecks only result in frustrated level 220s using outdated weaponry to defeat the newer eg content (gele, prot etc) and having to make locker alts that also need gearing, resulting in an endless cycle which is boring over long periods of time.

I also think you're confusing challenge with chance. Snorri isn't a challenging boss. It's not challenging to lock nor to kill. The "challenge" is actually the drop rates which all come down to chance. Many eg clans still have long waiting times for dl weapons because of this. The "challenge" that you're worried will disappear is not a challenge at all, rather it's simply a roadblock caused by unfavourable drop rates and the constant placeholders.

Most MMOs/RPG’s you don’t “complete” in 2 weeks, or even 2 months.

This is because theres horizontal content that keeps players engaged. It has nothing to do with slow gearing that's a result of a bossing system where you essentially roll the dice and hope something useful drops.


Divine ranger is spot on. The goal of the game is not to get dl weapons, it’s to kill raid bosses.

If that’s the goal then why don’t we just start everyone off with DG and EDL weps?
Difficulty isn’t just “oh damn, this thing is hard to kill.” Difficulty in a game is anything that makes it take time, work, or otherwise adds additional challenges to winning it.

Your post seems to have gotten a bit off from my original comment that sparked this debate :lol:
You addressed whether or not “bottlenecks” are good, but ignored the fundamental as to whether or not there is a DL bottleneck, so as you didn’t disagree I’ll take it that you don’t have a problem with that argument.

Now as to whether or not a “bottleneck” is good is a different matter. My argument was that, you could say, a light “bottleneck” is healthy to game difficulty and as a result healthy to the game overall as it paces out players.

Your response was that players rush to EG now and get stuck with outdated equipment. My only question, is that not a difficulty? Sure, their level may be 220+, but let’s be honest, an EG player is not just a level. We all use lock alts now a days to gear our mains, so the mains level has become entirely irrelevant, so long as there is a lock alt to gear it.
Earlier it was brought up how DL and EDL weapons serve as a status symbol, they go to show that an individual has worked towards their equipment and didn’t just get them for having a week off irl and speed lixing to a certain level. There is no difficulty in lixing, a monkey could do it tbh. The difficulty is
1) locking bosses (I swear if auto correct changes locking to licking one more time... :lol: )
2) patience (think of how many games where time becomes a factor, no matter how skilled you are at a game it still takes time to get there)
3) community (working with other people isn’t as easy as it sounds sometimes, it’s an MMO so this difficult is built in, if you didn’t want this difficulty play Skyrim or an offline RPG.
4) skill (this game requires a bit of skill, knowing what gear to use to earn better gear through locking and downing EG bosses)

If OTM makes it so everyone can get DL weapons in 1 week, for example, then the only difficulty in the game becomes lixing. Boss locking is irrelevant as drops are plentiful. EG, lets be real, isn’t a challenge at all, all you need is the gear, which is now as common as banked sacrifice gear... and community, well removing this challenge might be the best part :lol: because with easy drops you don’t have to work with people as much. So you may just call it a SMORPG (somewhat multiplayer online RPG)...

If you can’t wait 2 months to get to EG at the least, you won’t want to stick around as a player.
Frozen can be a bottleneck at times, but it usually stunts speed leveling a small amount. DL allows for clans to reward hard work and also makes EG more challenging as unless players who get gear stick around, it becomes almost impossible to kill.

I get wanting easy gear, hell I’d love EDL rondel on my rogue, but at the cost where an already extremely easy and sped up game becomes completely challengeless, I’ll pass...
Gwydion - Guardian of Relentless
BobsYourUncle 224 Fire Mage

Stubborn 220 Warrior (Tank)

Feel free to pm me about anything or talk to me in game :D
boymclir wrote:Bob The God

Shadae wrote:This Bob guy is a guide? Legitimately?

CD Swapping since 2016

Re: Will the Frozen / DL Bottleneck be addressed?

#44
No one is asking to have full DL Armour with main and offhand included within a week. Why are you stuck on this? It’s ridiculous how it is now because it takes a lot of people well over a year to get main and offhand. Took me over a year on gwydion when we were rarely losing Snorri to competition. Right now epona has easily 20 people at Snorri and sreng constantly. Even grom. This is not a “light” bottleneck. Yes a light bottleneck is healthy but that is most definitely not what we have currently. Maybe your server is different than all the rest Bob.

Re: Will the Frozen / DL Bottleneck be addressed?

#45
Rotaries wrote:No one is asking to have full DL Armour with main and offhand included within a week. Why are you stuck on this? It’s ridiculous how it is now because it takes a lot of people well over a year to get main and offhand. Took me over a year on gwydion when we were rarely losing Snorri to competition. Right now epona has easily 20 people at Snorri and sreng constantly. Even grom. This is not a “light” bottleneck. Yes a light bottleneck is healthy but that is most definitely not what we have currently. Maybe your server is different than all the rest Bob.

We gear a dagger every 2 weeks atm with DL, I honestly can’t see how it could take a year.
Maybe it’s a banking or drop distribution issue? I don’t know.
Gwydion - Guardian of Relentless
BobsYourUncle 224 Fire Mage

Stubborn 220 Warrior (Tank)

Feel free to pm me about anything or talk to me in game :D
boymclir wrote:Bob The God

Shadae wrote:This Bob guy is a guide? Legitimately?

CD Swapping since 2016

Re: Will the Frozen / DL Bottleneck be addressed?

#46
bob the mage wrote:
Rotaries wrote:No one is asking to have full DL Armour with main and offhand included within a week. Why are you stuck on this? It’s ridiculous how it is now because it takes a lot of people well over a year to get main and offhand. Took me over a year on gwydion when we were rarely losing Snorri to competition. Right now epona has easily 20 people at Snorri and sreng constantly. Even grom. This is not a “light” bottleneck. Yes a light bottleneck is healthy but that is most definitely not what we have currently. Maybe your server is different than all the rest Bob.

We gear a dagger every 2 weeks atm with DL, I honestly can’t see how it could take a year.
Maybe it’s a banking or drop distribution issue? I don’t know.

On Epona it takes foreverrrrr to get DL weps. Mainly because the whole server is in the queue, which has a population with a high churn rate, rather than just the people in the dom clan.
Pizzazz 222 mage - Epona

Retired ♥
Eurydice 223 mage - Gwydion

Re: Will the Frozen / DL Bottleneck be addressed?

#47
No one is asking to get dl weapons in 1 week, you yourself said your clan don’t gear rogue alts with frozen dagger, why would you do that if there wasn’t a lack of drops due to a bottleneck. It would be a extremely easy fix and still make dl weaps challenging to get
Belenus
Nee 229 druid
ApplesBe 225 ranger
GetBashedX 222 warrior
Rainyy 200 rogue

Nuada
Meja druid

Re: Will the Frozen / DL Bottleneck be addressed?

#48
Divine Ranger wrote:
bob the mage wrote:
paggasquid wrote:
On Lugh we dominate sreng/snorri and I can assure you it is still a bottle neck. It still takes 3+ weeks to get a ranger or rogue weapon set( and thats a very positive estimate...).

I do not agree that a bottle necks at mid and lower levels are good for the game. It prevents people from actually moving forward to the better higher level content. And do people actually spend more time camping frozen and dl to get their weapons? Or does it just cater to the rich or people relying on the more active players in a clan?

If everyone is rushed right to EG they fizzle out quicker... ya everyone wants to win the game in 1 week... but then they stop playing a week later. Small bottlenecks, like dL weapons, allow for clans to move forward those that put in the work and allows for players to progress but not accelerated from day one to EG.

While it would be nice to put dL weapons on my rogue, it’s unrealisitc. We don’t even gear rogue alts with frozen dagger usually.

“Bottlenecks” are really just an illusion most of the time due to impatience. Players get used to met and warden being given with no work put in and quick leveling and when they get to 130 and are told that it may take 1-2 months to move on they flip out. Most MMOs/RPG’s you don’t “complete” in 2 weeks, or even 2 months. Then after frozen dL armor is pretty much not a bottleneck, if your clan has difficulty gearing DL armor it isn’t due to drop rates but rather locking rate. DL weapons are a small bottleneck, which while being a “status symbol” is also a way to keep players engaged with the game. Players feel tied to the game because they are working towards something that is a pretty OP reward.
I’ll agree drop rates could be shifted slightly, key word is slightly, so it’s possible for some more alts who have put in the time to get weapons, but if you remove the challenge then players may not stick around.

And I got my dl armor on rogue and mage and weapons on mage in a small clan of 8 people, so don’t say i’m Only saying this because I’m in a large clan. The game needs a degree of difficulty and something to separate older players from brand new players, and that thing is time, small “bottlenecks” create this slight separation.



As long as it is possible to lix to 220 within a few weeks players are able to quickly reach end game anyway. Therefore, it's flatly wrong to claim that bottlenecks will somehow prevent people from rushing to end game. These bottlenecks only result in frustrated level 220s using outdated weaponry to defeat the newer eg content (gele, prot etc) and having to make locker alts that also need gearing, resulting in an endless cycle which is boring over long periods of time.

I also think you're confusing challenge with chance. Snorri isn't a challenging boss. It's not challenging to lock nor to kill. The "challenge" is actually the drop rates which all come down to chance. Many eg clans still have long waiting times for dl weapons because of this. The "challenge" that you're worried will disappear is not a challenge at all, rather it's simply a roadblock caused by unfavourable drop rates and the constant placeholders.

Most MMOs/RPG’s you don’t “complete” in 2 weeks, or even 2 months.

This is because theres horizontal content that keeps players engaged. It has nothing to do with slow gearing that's a result of a bossing system where you essentially roll the dice and hope something useful drops.


Well the problem in that is the new area or new areas will only roll out 1 or 2 bosses. It doesn't take long before those get stale while the previous bosses are still at the "oh good. Mord is up again for the 978th time." Yet we still don't have fixes for issues that directly impact game play players have been asking for for years. So OTM says "we might look at changing that in the future but, hey, here's another boss for you that you'll get bored of instead."
Zyz 220 Druid
Noah Fences 220 Rogue

Re: Will the Frozen / DL Bottleneck be addressed?

#49
bob the mage wrote:
Rotaries wrote:No one is asking to have full DL Armour with main and offhand included within a week. Why are you stuck on this? It’s ridiculous how it is now because it takes a lot of people well over a year to get main and offhand. Took me over a year on gwydion when we were rarely losing Snorri to competition. Right now epona has easily 20 people at Snorri and sreng constantly. Even grom. This is not a “light” bottleneck. Yes a light bottleneck is healthy but that is most definitely not what we have currently. Maybe your server is different than all the rest Bob.

We gear a dagger every 2 weeks atm with DL, I honestly can’t see how it could take a year.
Maybe it’s a banking or drop distribution issue? I don’t know.


Your server is not a typical reflection of what occurs on most servers.
Zyz 220 Druid
Noah Fences 220 Rogue

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