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Re: In defense of rolling

#61
friddoo wrote:
Aileron wrote:
friddoo wrote:on gwydion the DKP system for raids is pretty fair although hard for actives to get more than 1 epic drop as all dkp gets spent on 1.


That's the primary flaw of a bidding system, that's why I wasn't too keen on doing something like that for Ava.

yes it can be flawed but I believe the system is superior in some respects to the loot council method purely because DKP system is an indifferent entity without feelings towards a specific player, for example if you dislike someone subconsciously you may be less inclined to vote them.


Loot council is only fair as long as the members of the council are impartial or uses some sort of measuring criteria to select recipients. I think bidding systems are just a bar higher than rolling for loot in terms of fairness. It doesn't guarantee the most active gets the most loot, and as someone already said, one person pays insanely high for one item and another gets a bargain on same item a week later just because of who were present in the raid, or that a certain blows all their dkp for a rare item. IMO, it's also a luck based system as rolling is.

Ranking from best to worst from my experience in many guilds/MMOs I've been part of

1 EP/GP dkp system
2 Traditional dkp system
3. Loot Council
4. Bidding dkp system
5. Random rolls
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There are two types of people in this world: Those who crave closure

A business is more profitable if they don't gouge and piss off customers.

Re: In defense of rolling

#62
Aileron wrote:1 EP/GP dkp system
2 Traditional dkp system
3. Loot Council
4. Bidding dkp system
5. Random rolls

I was under the impression that DKP = bidding, that they're one and the same.

You get points for attending bosses, points can be crunched through other formulas (accounting for activity/delay), go into different pools, whatever. But the basic idea stays the same, you earn points and you spend them on items you want. Player who bids the highest points gets the item.

How do methods #1 and #2 differentiate? Also what do EP/GP stand for.

Re: In defense of rolling

#63
Swan wrote:
Aileron wrote:1 EP/GP dkp system
2 Traditional dkp system
3. Loot Council
4. Bidding dkp system
5. Random rolls

I was under the impression that DKP = bidding, that they're one and the same.

You get points for attending bosses, points can be crunched through other formulas (accounting for activity/delay), go into different pools, whatever. But the basic idea stays the same, you earn points and you spend them on items you want. Player who bids the highest points gets the item.

How do methods #1 and #2 differentiate? Also what do EP/GP stand for.


There are many variations of DKP systems, the only common thing they have is that people earn points by attending raids.

Bidding systems use points like currency and it's an auction type system.

Traditional DKP system also uses points like currency but they buy items for fixed prices.

EP/GP is a priority-based system. EP = Effort Points GP = Gear Points. EP is earned by attending raids. GP is charged to you when taking items. Typically a more powerful item has a higher GP value than less powerful items, but they're always fixed (i.e. no bidding). EP/GP is your priority which is a ratio of your total effort vs accumulated gear. One can say it's a "smart round-robin". The higher your EP, the more turns you get to claim items. The more powerful items you claim, your priority goes down. So the system balances loot between the members. No one can hog all the good items compared to somebody else who are as active as them, because your ability to claim items is determined by how much EP you have earned and how many (and how powerful) items you have already gotten.

There are also other types of dkp sytsems like Suicide Kings or Zero-Sum, but those have plenty of flaws that they shouldn't even be used anymore.

The bidding system for rogues in some worlds where they blow all their points on one item is similar to Suicide Kings where one's total points get reset after they claimed one item. So yeah, bidding is at the bottom of my list.
Last edited by Aileron on Sun Jun 19, 2016 5:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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There are two types of people in this world: Those who crave closure

A business is more profitable if they don't gouge and piss off customers.

Re: In defense of rolling

#64
I think it would be very unlikely that a council would be 100% impartial. However it would seem that for the most part Unit has been able to make it work. It wasn't until yesterday that multiple players actually requested a drop that I myself wanted, it was a 90 poison hrung ring, I wasn't the one to get it, and while I can't say I wasn't upset in some way, it made sense as to why the other player received the drop, in terms of locks and what bosses poison damage is most effective in, a level 185 would make more use of it then myself at 205 in which tower bosses resist poison more.

Ultimately I think if the council gives logical reasoning when making a decision, I don't see why it wouldn't be an effective form of loot distribution.
Server: Arawn
Player: Phyzem:216Rogue
Player: Krypto:187-Rogue
Clan: Unit
http://www.youtube.com/mrappbee

Re: In defense of rolling

#65
DarKnight wrote:I think it would be very unlikely that a council would be 100% impartial. However it would seem that for the most part Unit has been able to make it work. It wasn't until yesterday that multiple players actually requested a drop that I myself wanted, it was a 90 poison hrung ring, I wasn't the one to get it, and while I can't say I wasn't upset in some way, it made sense as to why the other player received the drop, in terms of locks and what bosses poison damage is most effective in, a level 185 would make more use of it then myself at 205 in which tower bosses resist poison more.

Ultimately I think if the council gives logical reasoning when making a decision, I don't see why it wouldn't be an effective form of loot distribution.


It's easier in the beginning, that's why it seems like its effective. But when you've gone on for years and plenty of variables/factors are now needed for consideration, then without an impartial record of what everyone has done or been up to, it all comes down to the perception of the leaders, e.g. 'A is more active than B in the last 2 years" - how do you say that with 100% absolute accuracy especially when it's between 2 active people.

In Avalon, Mortalcreed is without question the most active rogue. But if you ask me who is the next most active? Of the 7 other rogues, there are 4 that are close to each other in terms of attendance. If I have to decide without using some attendance tracker who gets the next Gelebron dagger, there is no way to figure it out fairly. It will come down to who the officers like and who pays me the most :lol: 8-)
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There are two types of people in this world: Those who crave closure

A business is more profitable if they don't gouge and piss off customers.

Re: In defense of rolling

#66
Aileron wrote:
DarKnight wrote:I think it would be very unlikely that a council would be 100% impartial. However it would seem that for the most part Unit has been able to make it work. It wasn't until yesterday that multiple players actually requested a drop that I myself wanted, it was a 90 poison hrung ring, I wasn't the one to get it, and while I can't say I wasn't upset in some way, it made sense as to why the other player received the drop, in terms of locks and what bosses poison damage is most effective in, a level 185 would make more use of it then myself at 205 in which tower bosses resist poison more.

Ultimately I think if the council gives logical reasoning when making a decision, I don't see why it wouldn't be an effective form of loot distribution.


It's easier in the beginning, that's why it seems like its effective. But when you've gone on for years and plenty of variables/factors are now needed for consideration, then without an impartial record of what everyone has done or been up to, it all comes down to the perception of the leaders, e.g. 'A is more active than B in the last 2 years" - how do you say that with 100% absolute accuracy especially when it's between 2 active people.


I see what you're saying, something I failed to mention is that we recently started to keep track of player attendance at specific bosses, most of them EG/DL/EDL. To me it almost seems like a DKP chart except there's no actual bidding, instead I guess if it came down to a scenario like the one you mention, I would assume the one with a higher attendance would be the one to get the drop.
Server: Arawn
Player: Phyzem:216Rogue
Player: Krypto:187-Rogue
Clan: Unit
http://www.youtube.com/mrappbee

Re: In defense of rolling

#67
I don't think being active has anything to do with being given an item you fought hard at a boss for. If you show up you should have a chance at least of getting a drop. Sounds more to me people in other servers just want excuses to push their greedy agenda.

Re: In defense of rolling

#68
be0wulf wrote:I don't think being active has anything to do with being given an item you fought hard at a boss for. If you show up you should have a chance at least of getting a drop. Sounds more to me people in other servers just want excuses to push their greedy agenda.


I think it's fine to roll if the items are common enough. But if it's a once-in-a-lifetime drop like the godly items in CH, one person who attended a single raid compared to someone else who has attended 100 raids, I think it's more greedy for that one-raid person to roll against others who have been there more than others. If you think being active in raids has nothing to do with what you deserve for loot, then you have a different mindset than most other players.

It's not greed that pushes servers to use loot distributions systems besides rolling but the intention of seeing items distributed fairly. One can argue that rolling is more governed by greed. But to each his own. Epona is happy. Other servers are happy. No need to bash other servers for coming up with another system besides random luck.
Image


There are two types of people in this world: Those who crave closure

A business is more profitable if they don't gouge and piss off customers.

Re: In defense of rolling

#69
Aileron wrote:
be0wulf wrote:I don't think being active has anything to do with being given an item you fought hard at a boss for. If you show up you should have a chance at least of getting a drop. Sounds more to me people in other servers just want excuses to push their greedy agenda.


I think it's fine to roll if the items are common enough. But if it's a once-in-a-lifetime drop like the godly items in CH, one person who attended a single raid compared to someone else who has attended 100 raids, I think it's more greedy for that one-raid person to roll against others who have been there more than others. If you think being active in raids has nothing to do with what you deserve for loot, then you have a different mindset than most other players.

It's not greed that pushes servers to use loot distributions systems besides rolling but the intention of seeing items distributed fairly. One can argue that rolling is more governed by greed. But to each his own. Epona is happy. Other servers are happy. No need to bash other servers for coming up with another system besides random luck.


In a roll system like eponas you can also sell these items. An inactive person typically sells them anyways and it eventually gets passed around.

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